Talk:LibreIkemen
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Can't edit without proprietary tools[edit]
I realized that Ikemen GO requires the use of MUGEN's proprietary sprite and sound formats, which cannot be modified without proprietary tools. This also includes LibreIkemen, which means neither are really libre, as this means the freedom to modify is restricted to the use of proprietary, abusive tools. I marked the page for deletion because of this. -Blitzdoughnuts (talk) 01:04, 26 September 2024 (CEST)
- So the assets themselves (images, sound) are libre, but the format they use are proprietary? Interesting. I don't, however, see the license of proprietary tools to create said assets as a showstopper as long as the tools are not directly required to use the final product (play the game). I bet a lot of proprietary tools have been used to create lots of libre assets through the years. --Fiver (talk) 21:50, 26 September 2024 (CEST)
- Strictly speaking it is an issue because free software (and by extension any free work) must allow not only use but also modification, studying and redistribution, AKA the four basic freedoms. That is what distinguishes it from mere freeware. It's fine if the work was created with proprietary software but it must further on be modifiable with free software only. I think many free software repositories have this as a rule (don't quote me on it but I think you will find something along these lines in GNU, Debian and so on). --Drummyfish (talk) 01:49, 29 September 2024 (CEST)
- I want to highlight the difference between permission to modify and facilitation to modify. Permission is determined by the license, and facilitation is determined by the availability of tools. To make an informed decision I would need to see sources both for the claim that assets must be modified using only libre software for the game to be considered libre, and for the claim that many software repositories have this as a rule. I'm not saying you're wrong, and I'll gladly read relevant links you can provide on this matter, I just don't recognize that the availability or license of the tools would be a factor when determining if the final products are considered libre or not. Besides, any libre text editor or libre hex editor can be used to modify any file (like assets or software). The precision may not be very good, but I can't imagine any requirement regarding such precision or even usability. --Fiver (talk) 19:05, 30 September 2024 (CEST)
- I'm kinda tired so you win I guess.--Drummyfish (talk) 17:49, 1 October 2024 (CEST)
- I want to highlight the difference between permission to modify and facilitation to modify. Permission is determined by the license, and facilitation is determined by the availability of tools. To make an informed decision I would need to see sources both for the claim that assets must be modified using only libre software for the game to be considered libre, and for the claim that many software repositories have this as a rule. I'm not saying you're wrong, and I'll gladly read relevant links you can provide on this matter, I just don't recognize that the availability or license of the tools would be a factor when determining if the final products are considered libre or not. Besides, any libre text editor or libre hex editor can be used to modify any file (like assets or software). The precision may not be very good, but I can't imagine any requirement regarding such precision or even usability. --Fiver (talk) 19:05, 30 September 2024 (CEST)
- Strictly speaking it is an issue because free software (and by extension any free work) must allow not only use but also modification, studying and redistribution, AKA the four basic freedoms. That is what distinguishes it from mere freeware. It's fine if the work was created with proprietary software but it must further on be modifiable with free software only. I think many free software repositories have this as a rule (don't quote me on it but I think you will find something along these lines in GNU, Debian and so on). --Drummyfish (talk) 01:49, 29 September 2024 (CEST)
- Freedom isn't just about licenses; we also require that games publish source code, right? Libregamewiki:Article policy isn't crystal clear on this but it seems implied. I don't know how difficult editing the discussed format is, but if it's impractical with free tools, specifically because people usually use proprietary tools, then I don't think it's unreasonable to consider the game nonfree and delete the page for now. If it's merely slower or less convenient with free tools, then I think the page should stay. If something is naturally impractical to edit, and not because of any missing information or source code, then I think that's fine. Even if the game isn't acceptable now, the information needed to read a data format is probably a good step towards the information needed to modify that data format, so the game could be acceptable once free tools can modify the data. --Jacob K (talk) 11:15, 29 January 2025 (CEST)